Date: Tue, 9 Nov 93 04:30:02 PST From: Advanced Amateur Radio Networking Group Errors-To: TCP-Group-Errors@UCSD.Edu Reply-To: TCP-Group@UCSD.Edu Precedence: Bulk Subject: TCP-Group Digest V93 #291 To: tcp-group-digest TCP-Group Digest Tue, 9 Nov 93 Volume 93 : Issue 291 Today's Topics: campus and ka9q Campus Net (2 msgs) Ham Emergency Service 20 Years From Now (6 msgs) NOS FTP breaks 3B2 (2 msgs) Re- TCP broadcast storm (2 msgs) TCP-Group Digest V93 #286 Send Replies or notes for publication to: . Subscription requests to . Problems you can't solve otherwise to brian@ucsd.edu. Archives of past issues of the TCP-Group Digest are available (by FTP only) from UCSD.Edu in directory "mailarchives". We trust that readers are intelligent enough to realize that all text herein consists of personal comments and does not represent the official policies or positions of any party. Your mileage may vary. So there. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1993 10:51:42 -0600 (CST) From: "Bill Walker" Subject: campus and ka9q To: tcp-group@ucsd.edu Many thanks for all of the really helpful and thoughtful notes that I received concerning our campus networking problems. To summarize, most respondents suggested: qvtnet in some form or NCSA stuff As a uucp site (no off-campus FTP!) we have managed to find all of this stuff on uunet, and copy it via uucp. We'll test it and let folks know how it worked out. I really appreciate the help! 73 de Bill W5GFE -- Bill Walker Ph.D. Chairman, Dept. of Computer Science East Central University Ada, Oklahoma 74820-6899 e-mail: bw@cs.ecok.edu phone: 405 332 8000 ext. 594 FAX: 405 332 1623 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1993 07:15:52 -0600 (CST) From: Steve Sampson Subject: Campus Net To: TCP-Group@UCSD.Edu invitado@speedy.coacade.uv.mx says: > If you are searching for a program with telnet and ftp clients working > in Microsoft Windows try WinQVTNet, I tried this program at version 3, don't know what it is now, but the screen writing on telnet was excrutiatingly (sp?) slow. Other than that it looked pretty promising. --- Steve ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Nov 93 14:31:47 EST From: "Ashok Aiyar" Subject: Campus Net To: ssampson@sabea-oc.af.mil On Mon, 8 Nov 1993 07:15:52 -0600 (CST, Steve Sampson wrote: > >invitado@speedy.coacade.uv.mx says: > >> If you are searching for a program with telnet and ftp clients working >> in Microsoft Windows try WinQVTNet, > >I tried this program at version 3, don't know what it is now, >but the screen writing on telnet was excrutiatingly (sp?) slow. >Other than that it looked pretty promising. >--- >Steve Later versions of WinQVT/net have included Asynchronous scrolling, which makes things somewhat faster. The latest version of WinQVTnet is 3.94, and it is available in Winsock-16, Winsock-32, and packet driver versions. QVTnet is archived at: biochemistry.bioc.cwru.edu (129.22.152.44) in /pub/qvtnet Chloe Carter of QPC Software (djpk@troi.cc.rochester.edu) is kind enough to upload updates there directly. Best wishes, Ashok -- Ashok Aiyar Email: ashok@biochemistry.cwru.edu Department of Biochemistry Tel: (216) 368-3300 CWRU School of Medicine Fax: (216) 368-4544 MIME Enclosures OK ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1993 09:11:37 -0600 From: bob@ke9yq.ampr.org (Bob Van Valzah, ke9yq) Subject: Ham Emergency Service 20 Years From Now To: TCP-Group@UCSD.EDU Let's take Phil's comments a few steps further for a moment: >I've seen how PacTel builds cell sites in California, and >quite frankly I would sooner place my money on them staying operational >after a major earthquake than on the average ham repeater. Ten or twenty years from now, Moto's Iridum satellites (or some equivalent) will be up. With a "phone" that costs less than an HT, anyone will be able to pass traffic out of a disaster site from battery power with a self-contained, hand-held device. How will amateur emergency service then be distinguished from that provided by Red Cross volunteers holding these phones? I'm a strong advocate Amateur to Internet links (I've been running one for 2-1/2 years) and digital communication in general. Emergency power for amateur packet systems is a good idea for now. However, I ask the above question because I think that in the long term, the emphasis on emergency service in amateur radio will diminish. That'll leave the "experimental" and "advancing the state of the radio art" emphases. Maybe there's something I'm missing here (and if so, you can probably convince me I'm all wet). 73, Bob, ke9yq ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 08 Nov 93 16:08:17 EST From: "Louis A. Mamakos" Subject: Ham Emergency Service 20 Years From Now To: tcp-group@ucsd.edu > With a "phone" that costs less than an HT, anyone will be able > to pass traffic out of a disaster site from battery power with a > self-contained, hand-held device. How will amateur emergency service then > be distinguished from that provided by Red Cross volunteers holding these > phones? One difference is that telephone-like devices are point-to-point, while your usual amateur or public safety operations are multipoint, either by simplex transmissions, duplex repeaters or trunked-radio "talk groups". I mention this because of a comment that I read in a news story on the train accident that occured a few weeks ago. One worker on the scene bemoaned the fact that while they had cell phones in use, no on know what was really going on because they had no way of monitoring the other communications! It may be that commercial systems of the future will be able to handle "conference" calls like this. Louis A. Mamakos louie@uunet.uu.net UUNET Technologies, Inc. uunet!louie 3110 Fairview Park Dr., Suite 570 Voice) +1 703 204 8000 Falls Church, Va 22042 Fax) +1 703 204 8001 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Nov 93 21:02:25 GMT From: John Trickey Subject: Ham Emergency Service 20 Years From Now To: Bob Van Valzah Bob, I know this is getting off line for the group but you've touched a subject close to my heart as I am a group controller for the service here in the UK (Raynet). In "Ham Emergency Service 20 Years From Now" ( 9:11, Mon Nov 8, 1993) Bob Van Valzah , ke9yq) wrote > > >I've seen how PacTel builds cell sites in California, and > >quite frankly I would sooner place my money on them staying operational > >after a major earthquake than on the average ham repeater. > > Ten or twenty years from now, Moto's Iridum satellites (or some equivalent) > will be up. With a "phone" that costs less than an HT, anyone will be able > to pass traffic out of a disaster site from battery power with a > self-contained, hand-held device. How will amateur emergency service then > be distinguished from that provided by Red Cross volunteers holding these > phones? This is always the argument for why amateur emergency comms are doomed. In truth, you are looking at the wrong problem. A not too distant example highlighted this. I refer to Lockerbie where Raynet was called into assist in comms. It was not because the the normal infrastructure had been destroyed. OK, some work had to be done to repair damage but Cellphones and PMR were all available and the PTT quickly installed new links. But Raynet were still needed...Why, because no matter what capacity was installed, it was just not sufficient to cope with the traffic. Its not the bandwidth which amateurs supply that is important, its the way in which its used. Public channels are just that and every man and his dog will try to use them. Hams carried essential messages because the regulated net provided an environment in which transmission was guaranteed. In 20 years time, I don't think things will be that much different. We just will not have enough ironmongery/bandwidth in the sky to cope with that sort of load. That leads me also to conclude that amprnet<->internet gateways are a good thing as we can regulate the traffic we pass. I suppose its a case of any port in a storm (pun intended). With apologies to tcpip-ers.... 73, John -- +------------------------------------+------------------------------------+ + Work + Play + + Internet: jvt@its.bt.co.uk + Internet: john@its.bt.co.uk + + + Amprnet: john@g4rev.ampr.org + + + BBS: G4REV@GB7LOB.#11.GBR.EU + +------------------------------------+------------------------------------+ + Intel free zone + +-------------------------------------------------------------------------+ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1993 17:35:37 -0500 From: chk@alias.com (C. Harald Koch) Subject: Ham Emergency Service 20 Years From Now To: bob@ke9yq.ampr.org (Bob Van Valzah ke9yq) > Ten or twenty years from now, Moto's Iridum satellites (or some equivalent) > will be up. With a "phone" that costs less than an HT, anyone will be able > to pass traffic out of a disaster site from battery power with a > self-contained, hand-held device. How will amateur emergency service then > be distinguished from that provided by Red Cross volunteers holding these > phones? And just like the existing wire-based phone system, it'll break under load during an Emergency. The phone system doesn't (usually) break because it's physically damaged; the Phone Companies are very good at building failsafes. Instead, the phone system collapses under the load of every person trying to use their phone at the same time during an emergency. Iridium will suffer exactly the same load problems, and so will be useless for the same reasons. -- C. Harald Koch, Network Analyst | "Cable is not a luxury, since many areas have Alias Research Inc. Toronto, ON | poor TV reception". - Mayor, Tucson AZ, 1989 chk@alias.com | [ apparently, good TV reception is a basic chk@utcc.utoronto.ca | necessity -- at least in Tucson -kl ] ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Nov 93 18:35:56 PST From: MUSCHINSKE%39A.decnet@sunman.chinalake.navy.mil Subject: Ham Emergency Service 20 Years From Now To: "tcp-group@ucsd.edu"%SUNMAN.decnet@sunman.chinalake.navy.mil Just imagine 20,000 people trying to access Iridium simultaneously! :-} Also, how many of these cellular sites are linked via light pipe? They tend to break just like water and gas pipes. Erich Muschinske AX.25: KA6AMD @ WA6YBN.#SOCA.CA.USA.NA Internet: muschinske%39a.decnet@scfb.chinalake.navy.mil ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Nov 93 20:50:05 PST From: algedi!kb7roe (kb7roe) Subject: Ham Emergency Service 20 Years From Now To: TCP-Group@UCSD.EDU Bob Van Valzah ke9yq writes: >Let's take Phil's comments a few steps further for a moment: >>I've seen how PacTel builds cell sites in California, and >>quite frankly I would sooner place my money on them staying operational >>after a major earthquake than on the average ham repeater. >Ten or twenty years from now, Moto's Iridum satellites (or some equivalent) >will be up. With a "phone" that costs less than an HT, anyone will be able >to pass traffic out of a disaster site from battery power with a >self-contained, hand-held device. How will amateur emergency service then >be distinguished from that provided by Red Cross volunteers holding these >phones? Bob is both right and somewhat off base with regard to Iridium. The first Iridium prototypes will fly in about 2 years, and the satellite constellation will be up in much less than 10 years, more like 5 or 6. Ground equipment around the world is another matter. In areas of dense population, the Iridium handsets will go through the local cellular net, so if say an earthquake takes down phones in L.A., then Iridium could be saturated, and the Red Cross volunteers might not get through. So don't imagine that the need for emergency communications will go away because we will have one or more global communciation satellite networks in the coming years! -- De David, KB7ROE (Runs On Electricity) TCP/IP address: kb7roe.ampr.org AX.25 address: kb7roe@n7ipb.wa.usa also on Internet: dqk@rocket.com Internet to tcp/ip: algedi!kb7roe@pilchuck.data-io.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1993 21:13:55 -0600 (CST) From: Steve Sampson Subject: NOS FTP breaks 3B2 To: TCP-Group@UCSD.Edu ashok@biochemistry.cwru.edu writes: >>On Mon, 8 Nov 1993 07:15:52 -0600 (CST, Steve Sampson wrote: >> >>invitado@speedy.coacade.uv.mx says: >> >>> If you are searching for a program with telnet and ftp clients working >>> in Microsoft Windows try WinQVTNet, >> >>I tried this program at version 3, don't know what it is now, >>but the screen writing on telnet was excrutiatingly (sp?) slow. >>Other than that it looked pretty promising. > >Later versions of WinQVT/net have included Asynchronous scrolling, >which makes things somewhat faster. The latest version of >WinQVTnet is 3.94, and it is available in Winsock-16, Winsock-32, >and packet driver versions. > >QVTnet is archived at: > >biochemistry.bioc.cwru.edu (129.22.152.44) in /pub/qvtnet > >Chloe Carter of QPC Software (djpk@troi.cc.rochester.edu) is >kind enough to upload updates there directly. > >Best wishes, >Ashok OK, I give up. . . Recently all the NOS versions connected to the Internet (I've tried) don't FTP with the WIN3B TCP/IP Software on the 3B2. It seems to center around the 220 command. NOS seems to be sending many of these, where there used to be just one. The effect here is that I get an ftp> prompt faster than normal. If I do a bunch of "pwd" (null commands) I get to see the many MOTD's that NOS folks seem proud of; 2 lines at a time. Maybe there's some default 220 length switch on the 3B2 I haven't found yet. Then at the end it says to login with USER again. Since I don't have source to the 3B2 FTP code, I can't bypass this. But there must be some obtuse way of working around this I haven't found yet. I'm about to read the RFC and see what NOS is doing that's different from the 3B2, and maybe resolve the error one way or another. I also tried BSD Unix and it seems to just give all the 220's at once, and seems to work. Your system merely says it's unavailable during business hours, so I couldn't check. Maybe if all this 220 bo-jive was before the login?? Anyway, the result is that the 3b2 can't FTP to NOS anymore. --- Steve ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1993 20:45:19 -0800 (PST) From: Lyndon Nerenberg Subject: NOS FTP breaks 3B2 To: Steve Sampson The 3B2 networking code is broke, broke, broke. Get yourself a recent copy of the BSD FTP client software and port it. You might as well do telnet, rlogin, and the appropriate servers while you're at it ... --lyndon ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1993 08:10:22 -0800 From: braden@ISI.EDU (Bob Braden) Subject: Re- TCP broadcast storm To: braden@ISI.EDU, postel@ISI.EDU *> *> Bob: *> *> The Morris Worm did not bring down the Internet. The Internet was very *> efficient and effective in delivering the Worm attack to numerous end *> hosts, many of which became too busy to do useful work, and were re-attacked *> when local efforts were made to clear them. However, neither the Internet *> routers, nor the lines were in anyway attacked or out of service due to the *> Morris Worm. *> *> --jon. *> Jon, Thanks for correcting me. I know that well, of course. I was using "Internet" in the colloquial sense, to mean the service seen by users. As an Internet user, I was unable to carry on my usual business until all the worm-caused host knots were untied, perhaps a day of lost work. Do broadcast storms caused by faulty host software fall into the same grey area? Bob ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1993 08:43:10 -0800 From: postel@ISI.EDU (Jon Postel) Subject: Re- TCP broadcast storm To: braden@ISI.EDU Bob: Well, Ethernet broadcast storms are caused by the hosts misbehaving, but they behave in a way that overloads the network, so that other traffic from other hosts does not get through. In the Morris Worm situation, i don't think the network was overloaded, and traffic from uninfected hosts did get transmitted normally. Certainly from the end users point of view it hardly matters if it is the network that is broken or it is the hosts that are broken or even if it is the database (or whatever) services that are broken. From the end users point of view, it doesn't work, and the "it" is the Internet. --jon. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1993 17:25:03 -0500 From: chk@alias.com (C. Harald Koch) Subject: TCP-Group Digest V93 #286 To: karn@qualcomm.com (Phil Karn) > Funny you should mention the San Francisco (actually Loma Prieta) > earthquake. The Internet stayed up the whole time, although a few hosts > went off due to power failures. And it carried quite a bit of traffic in > the "health and welfare" category that couldn't be carried on the > telephone because of call blocking. There's even a mailing list dedicated to this topic now: NETWORKS IN EMERGENCY MANAGEMENT ("nets") DIGEST #1 - 6 May 1993 1) INTRODUCING "NETS" I guess you could call this an experiment within an experiment. The first experiment has to do with the use of data networks in emergency management. The California Office of Emergency Services (OES) has been exploring the power and perils of this medium within the state's emergency-management system for about a year now. As part of that experiment, we started a discussion on the subject of "Networking In Emergency Management." The participation in that discussion became so great that we had to shift to a moderated- forum format. Making a virtue out of necessity, we decided to open up the discussion to a wider audience around the Internet. Our focus in on applications of networks and networked computers (of all types) in the practice of emergency management. We invite you to join our exploration of this important topic. Please see the end of this issue for the technical details. - Art Botterell California Office of Emergency Services ---------------------------------- "Networks In Emergency Management" is a moderated forum on the use of computer networks and networked computers in the practice of emergency management. Opinions and representations are the writers' own, and their inclusion in this forum does not imply endorsement by the State of California or the California Office of Emergency Services. Comments for inclusion in this forum may be mailed to "nets@oes.ca.gov". We'll include appropriate ones, as space permits, in an upcoming issue. To join the "nets" mailing list, please send e-mail to "nets-request@oes.ca.gov" with the word "subscribe" in the text of the message. To remove yourself from the list, send mail to that same address with the word "unsubscribe" in the text. Back issues and other text files are available from our e-mail server. For information on how to use the server, send mail to "nets-request@oes.ca.gov" with a message body of "help". For an index of available files, send mail to the same address with a message body of "index". Please DO NOT send subscription or other server requests to "nets@oes.ca.gov"; that address is for submissions to the forum only. Off-line comments and suggestions may be addressed to "acb@oes.ca.gov" (Art Botterell). In an emergency, you can reach us by phone at (916) 262-1600. --[END]-- -- C. Harald Koch, Network Analyst | "Cable is not a luxury, since many areas have Alias Research Inc. Toronto, ON | poor TV reception". - Mayor, Tucson AZ, 1989 chk@alias.com | [ apparently, good TV reception is a basic chk@utcc.utoronto.ca | necessity -- at least in Tucson -kl ] ------------------------------ End of TCP-Group Digest V93 #291 ****************************** ******************************